Cause and effect not actual?

Hmm, you got me dreaming of psychedelics now!

Damn the police state I live in!!!

That’s fantastic.

Without a “space” between them, how is it I exist in time at all?

Going to be running that question now…

I was running “I have no doubt that the actual world exists, why don’t I experience it like others have described?”

This is a cooler question.

Without space between the so called cause and effect, how do I exist?

A universe with a beginning is more absurd to me than a beginningless one. What does having a beginning solve? To me it’s become intuitive (wasn’t the case before)that there is a neverending string of events. It’s simply the only possible scenario that works for me.

Cause and effect don’t imply a beginning in my mind. An ordering of events is required, but that doesn’t imply movement of time.
There was an event C that’s followed by another, E. They’re in a causal relationship because C happening in the context it did implies that E will happen after it. C happened at a point in time and E at another point, the same way that I’m at a point in space that’s ‘here’ and the chair in front of me is at a point ‘there’ that would have been ‘here’ if I was at that point.

Jeez, how can I be real at all?

Yes, I find a beginning absurd.

What is spinning me out is how that “chain of events” can exist when time doesn’t move?

More than that actually, how on earth do I create psychological time?

I need that “chain of events” because it somehow supports me. I mean psychologically, I depend on it.

Hmm, riffing here.

According to what benchmark am I ordering these events as 1 following another? A past and a future, neither of which exist in actuality. If it is always now it is impossible for an event to follow another event as where would they be coming from and where are they going? I cannot follow someone if we are not going anywhere.

The only reason you can say this is because ‘you’ are the frame of reference in the scenario which allows a here and there, but this does not apply if the frames of reference are removed as in where there is no edges to the universe.

Yes, the psychological picture is that time is a record player needle moving over the grooves of the material world, which means time, like modern science says, is spacetime. As if I could fast forward it, pause it, play it backwards.

Like a movie reel. The universe to ‘me’ is playing out a pre-recorded series of events.

Yet, without time moving, then neither the material “billiard ball” picture of determinism, or the elastic relativity of modern science has any space to happen.

Things do actually move though. Things are actually happening. I think you’re butting into the seeming contradiction of - “if time and space stand still, how can anything happen ??”

I don’t know how but they do :smile:. Things do actually move through time and space. Time and space are like arenas and things move through them, while the arena itself is still.

So we can track how the earth moves and call the time it takes to go 360 degrees around the sun a “year” (OMG I just realized 1 day = 1 degree movement around the sun). And a 360 degree rotation of earth is a day. We can call 15 degrees of rotation an hour, and 1 degree … … 4 minutes lol.

So these units measure things that are actually happening. Then we can benchmark against it. In the time the earth rotated 1 degree I wrote this post … etc.

And there is certainly a causality , an ordering of events. Otherwise nothing would be able to happen. When the earth was here there was no post … when the earth was there there was a post. Claudiu clicked “reply” and then by the time the earth rotated another fraction of a degree , it was on the discourse server already. Clearly clicking the reply button is what caused that.

How can all that happen , how can there be an ordering if time stands still??? Well the PCE answers that :smile:

Quite obviously moving; my glass of ginger beer and whiskey didn’t drink itself :rofl:

I am enjoying the mind bending of it. Like the other month we talked about the plane leaving LA and it was “now” and arriving in NYC, also “now”.

How did it get there?

(I am going to have to be content with tripping on these thoughts, even though Kuba had to bring up LSD🤣)

Yes for sure things are happening that is the 1 concrete thing here, 100% things are happening :laughing:

I am on my own tangent here!

How did I get from the lounge room to the back yard? It was “now” the whole time!

Somehow, I am back in the lounge …

I remember walking, but that walking doesn’t exist, or does it?

Hmmmm, now I am 26 again, spinning out about the infinite.

Things are happening in our brains, we do know that. There is no proof that these happenings are real, and a lot of proof that many happenings are delusions tainted by beliefs. The earth appears to be flat, the Sun appears to rise, cross the sky, and fall – we appear to have been born into a mortal body, oh my!

If we have absolutely no direct contact with what is real, and only have sensory data through limited and imperfect organs that feed into a biased brain evolved for survival and not truth, what are the odds that anything we believe we know is real? This line of “reasoning” is equally suspect. What is a poor little me to do? :slightly_smiling_face:

Past and future don’t exist, now. But that doesn’t imply events didn’t happen and will not happen, and certainly doesn’t imply lack of ordering. Events happen now, and then other events happen, also now. You don’t need ‘the past’ as a reference - it’s just a concept for all the events that did happen already. You can certainly remember an event happened and that doesn’t mean it exists in the past, it happened at some point and then something else happened. It also doesn’t require a ‘you’. You can set up a camera and affirm that something happened without being there.

The benchmark of ordering is time itself. Time doesn’t move, it is the arena in which the various states of the universe are ordered. If space were 2d l, you can imagine the various slices ordered, one after the other(there is subtlety around the concept of simultineity here, but let’s ignore it for now). Let me clarify - I don’t imply that the various slices exist at once. There is a single slice that moves along the arrow of time.

Well, whatever we can to enjoy this delicious conundrum for a start!

Something is definitely happening. Words on a screen, actively wondering, a blinking cursor…


How is this arrow of time possible when time does not move though? This is what I am getting at.

But there is stuff in the universe. We can only think with a frame of reference. You think about a particular situation with particular objects so there’s always a frame of reference.
The universe having no edges doesn’t imply a lack of frames of reference, it implies that all frames of reference are equally valid.

Imagine that the universe is 2d, a plane. Imagine a concrete state that the universe is currently in.
Now imagine that as it changes it flies along the arrow of time. Time doesn’t move and there is no past and future, just the current universe flying in time by changing itself.

I gotta check out of the convo, Miguel already blew my mind, and now I don’t know how I exist at all!

Good times. :+1:

Oh I shall propose another question then :stuck_out_tongue:

Do things move through time or in time?

This may be an important distinction. @proporcrutch your model proposes a situation where the universe is moving through time, time is the arrow which has a directionality (an endless directionality but nevertheless a directionality). This means that things are on some level fundamentally disconnected from time as it is something static that the events dynamically move through, in my opinion this is incorrect.

How about a situation where events happen in eternal time? This means that all events are fundamentally interlocked/interwoven with eternal time itself. This means that nothing is moving through anything. Time is perfectly still and so is space hence the stillness, events happen in this arena.